Please can you get in touch again? Thank you.
Here's what you wrote
"And this is what is wrong with religion.
you should keep your religion to yourself, the arrogant view that
people are better off with your religion (not any of the other hundreds
of religions strangely) is disgusting.
i am atheist, does
that make me less of a person than you? no. but in your eyes it does.
its a horrible world view to have, and you shouldn't be actively
approaching people effectively telling people this. keep your religion
to yourself and keep it in your church.
however if i did bump into you in the street im sure i could pose some interesting questions and ideas to you."
Thank you for your opinion, in response to my post about Street Pastoring, it is always interesting to hear what others have to say.
I posed the question to facebook to see what I should do about your post, as I have many Christian and non-Christian friends. The opinions ranged from reply to delete, and one answer caught my eye...
"And this is what is wrong with atheism.
You should keep your atheism to yourself, the arrogant view that people
are better off without religion (including any of the other hundreds of
religions strangely) is disgusting.
I am Christian, does that
make me less of a person than you? no. but in your eyes it does. its a
horrible world view to have, and you shouldn't be actively approaching
people effectively telling people this. keep your atheism to yourself.
however if i did bump into you in the street I'm sure i could pose some interesting questions and ideas to you."
Thank you for your opinion, because I would not have a story to tell about how I helped a few people on the way home after my work Christmas do, how I wished that I did have a Street Pastors hat and jacket on to help those who were in distress or lost, because before you posted it, all I could think about was getting home to bed, instead it inspired me to remove broken glass from the high street and speak to my friends about how best to respond.
I feel that Jesus would probably ask if he could come to dinner at yours.
Thank you for finding my blog and if you would like to talk to me, please get in contact.
57 comments:
Hi Liz, thanks for promoting my views to the blog itself and not just the comments.
I think the reply you got from facebook which exactly reversed my statement is interesting, but here is why i think it fails:
atheism itself isnt a position like religion; it is only a response to the positive statement that a god exists, which it rejects. if an atheist helps out in the community, which i do to a degree, it is not in the name of religion, but in the name of humanism or altruism.
i do keep my atheism to myself, but if someone else has a blog or street pastoring group (which is not keeping religion private) then my voice is a response - not proselytising, which is not the same thing.
i do not see you as less of a person, as i do not try to convert people - creating debate and having a discussion is not the same. we are all human, equal, but does that mean we have equal knowledge, world views or reasoning ability? no.
i clearly do not actively approach people with my atheism, and only do so in response to people that promote their religion.
id like to know the interesting questions and ideas this person has for me.
as for your response at the end, what you are doing is mixing good work and preaching. why must these go together? you help people and the community out, but in return they must be preached to. why is this? why can you not do your good work, but then not preach your message and save it for church.
it is the opposite of people who use religion to preach hate and violence. why must one go with the other? clearly the good things you do can be separated from religion, as can the hate, bigotry and violence. these are all human things to do, and we can all do them with or without religion.
as for jesus, im not sure how you would know what he thinks. do you personally know the mind of god? if he does exist i would certainly invite him for dinner - i may just ask him why he approved of slavery, rape and murder.
"but if someone else has a blog"
So...people aren't allowed to make blogs about what ever we like then?
Street pastors don't preach! They help those who get so drunk they need help to get a cab, or are given flip flops because they decide to wear "killer heels" which they regret at the end of the night. We know god's mind because it is in the bible, Jesus condemned lust, murder and anyone who treated others badly!
Often in times of opinion sharing, when someone asks a question like 'How do you know what Jesus would do?' I look to the Bible, particularly the gospels where Jesus is so often written about. In this case the story of Zaccheus the tax collector in Luke 19 popped into may head (often a God thing!) and I thought that I ought to share it.
Jesus, faced with someone who was so desperate to see him, that he climbed into a tree, invited himself for dinner. Jesus was minding his own business, but he had his wits about him enough to spot someone who wanted to see what was going on and he responded.
Often sharing my faith is a response to someone asking a question. Jesus often responded to people, his disciples were the ones asking questions, the people that disliked him so much they wanted to trip him up at every opportunity followed him around and asked him questions.
I don't preach unless I am asked to, I hope I am not inappropriate and insensitive. I often hold back but spending a night helping people out is what I was built to do, faith or not, seeing someone in need demands a greater response from me than sharing my beliefs with them. Wouldn't you agree?
Like I said to one of my friends on Facebook, I would say that one need to spend a night with the street pastors or the police, or even the guys who look after the taxi rank in Chelmsford, to see what they do to get the bigger picture.
@anonymous - my point about having a blog is that if you put these ideas out into the public (which is fine) you should accept that people are allowed to confront them
@philpot - handing out gospels and helping people whilst emblazoned with religious symbols or words isnt preaching? yes you are doing a good thing, but you surely dont pass up the opportunity to talk about your faith?
@philpot - i didnt mention lust - are you saying he did or didnt approve of slavery, rape or incest? doesnt jesus say he isnt here to change anything in the old testament? are you a creationist? because jesus was.
@liz how do you know the bible is correct? it was written, anonymously, decades after jesus' death. how can you be sure he said any of those things?
plus reading a book is not the same as knowing someones mind. even if i read all 100 of jordans autobiographies (or someone with equivalent detailed accounts of their life) it does not mean i could know their mind. only what they had said. and we know jordans books are first hand accounts!
you say you dont preach unless asked - but marking yourselves as clearly 'street pastors' you are inviting questions about your religion. if you just a sign saying "humanitarian aid" i doubt many would ask you to preach to them.
im glad you admit, to some degree, that helping others goes beyond religion - and its great you help others at no reward for yourself (except perhaps your belief in eternal life?) but my issue is mixing it with religion.
yes i understand that religion is a community (that is the greatest attraction to some) and this community allows people to get together to do good things. but religion is often geared towards using these opportunities for its own good.
@EssexAthiest Surely Everyone has the right to hear the message don't they just as everyone has the right to hear yours? Although you may not agree with what they believe in, you should feel lucky that we live in a country where we can share our views and faith. Would you really go out and be an Athiest Street Pastor in the freezing cold in Chelmsford to a bunch of drunken people who are unpredictable. You have to admire what they are doing even if you don't agree with it. It take guts and faith dude.
Chelmsford street pastors only wear a jacket emblazoned "street pastor", they don't carry around their bibles as they need their hands to pick up discarded glass bottles as Liz said.
I know quite a few of the street pastors and their main concern is for the safety of the drunks, but now they have a regular "presence" on the high street people go up and chat to them! How much of a theological discussion can you have with someone who is being sick or incoherent?
Jesus was against rape- "he that looks at a woman with lust is an adulterer" not really a pro-rape statement?
William Wilberforce was inspired to abolish the slave trade after becoming a christian, in bible times servants were basically what we call "employees" now, look at the ruler who asked Jesus to heal his servant.
Jesus regularly says "it says in scripture but I say....", he then says "a new commandment i give to you, to love one another as I have loved you!"
Reading Jordan's books is not knowing her mind, considering they were probably partly ghost-written to make it more interesting.
The bible is many accounts of God's interaction with us, hence 4 versions of the gospel, 4 different view points etc. Those that wrote the bible, wrote down the stories that were passed down from generation to generation, people prided themselves in remembering every detail! Do you think that if anything was inaccurate they wouldn't have been pulled up on it?
@philpot well i read that liz handed out gospels. if there is no preaching done why identify as pastors?
well done william wilberforce, but what about the years of slavery beforehand condoned by the church and backed up by the bible.
is the servant jesus healed from luke chapter 7 by any chance? is it the same verse that uses the word slave to describe the man 4 times but servant only once? did they not know what the world slave meant? not only that jesus 'marvels' at is ability to be a slave - without any interest in setting him free.
well of course he can add new stuff to the bible - but did he ever change any of the old ways? he never mentions that anything in the old testament is wrong, but he helps create plenty of contradictions.
ah so we cant know jordans mind because her books are partly ghost written but we can know the mind of a god (who is meant to be too compex to understand) and is not just not ghost written it is a collection of stories passed down through generations by people who "prided themselves in remembering every detail". firstly im not sure how you know they prided themselves in that but secondly that also doesnt mean they got everything right.
are you then saying that nothing in the bible is inaccurate? for anything inaccurate would surely have been pulled up (maybe by the same committee that chose which gospels to leave out or maybe god himself?). let me repeat - are you saying nothing in the bible is inaccurate?
@jimmy no, you have the right to take your message to the street - the right isnt ours to hear it. our right is to hear it or not.
i am grateful we live in a free country - i cheer your right to pastor.
i wouldnt take the atheist message to the streets because atheism is a response - i would just ending up listing the things i dont believe in - god, allah, unicorns, ufos etc
i admire the good community work they do, i dont admire the 'pastoring' side of it and all the prayer that goes with (after all prayer does not work).
guts yes, faith not so much. the word faith is useless. it is the exact opposite of logic, reason and understanding.
@EssexAtheist you say that faith is useless yet you forget the age old argument about a chair, you can look at it, you can even ask the carpenter how he created it but you do not know for definite that it will hold your weight when you sit on it! You have to have faith that it will!
You need "faith" to believe that you will cross a road without getting run over! Anything can happen, a reckless driver speeding, your shoe gets stuck, you trip over and then fail to get back up in time.
Prayer does work, I have seen it first hand and experienced it. If prayer and pastoring doesn't work then why is it that where "street pastoring" is occurring, the crime levels have dropped, the nightlife in the towns are quieter and the police are dealing with less "incidences"?
Read
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2059652/Street-pastors-help-young-revellers-on-their-way.html
or even Essex Police's own article
http://www.essex.police.uk/news_features/other_stories/police_support_new_street_past1.aspx
And then tell me what they do is ineffective!
@philpot nice try with the chair but thats not faith. i base my expectations on years of sitting in chairs. when i look at a chair i compare it to the countless chairs i have sat on in the past and see if it looks like it will hold my weight. if it meets those initial expectations then i will sit on it. if, however, it looks flimsy or badly made i may not sit on it or sit down really slowly and gently. faith would be closing your eyes and taking for granted that it was a chair in front of you. with the faith method you could well be sitting on the floor fairly soon.
again with the road - im not sure you know what faith actually means. when i cross the road i use my EYES to check the road is clear. i dont cross the road with faith that i wont get run over, i know very well that i could get run over so i make sure i dont. years of crossing the road, and being taught how to by my parents, means i have expectations based on years of (scientific) tests. faith would be crossing the road blindfolded.
i didnt say street pastoring wasnt effective. of course it will be effective socially. why wouldnt it. if i dressed up as a nazi and 'pastored' on nazi ideas but cleaned the streets as i went then you can be sure the streets would be cleaner. thats not an issue.
as to prayer, personal testimony doesnt count for alot im afriad, im sure the has, in the past, been a correlation between you praying for something and it working out but im sure the opposite is true also. how can you know the real cause and effect.
read this article: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/40765.php
not only does it show praying didnt work, but also that it had a detrimental effect. and also note this test was carried out by the Templeton Foundation, a christian organisation.
1 Corinthians 1:18
@anonymous its lovely quote mining the bible isnt it. can i have a go? how about:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
why should i take your quote seriously without taking those seriously?
If you don't believe in God and you feel prayer is a redundant practise, not a communication with the Lord, and that Christianity itself should be kept behind closed doors so as not to infect more people’s minds, then how can you possibly use the Bible properly? I'm not surprised you have plucked the most damning verses you could find right out of their contexts.
You forget that language has evolved not only in translation from one to another but in more than a thousand years of English, so your point on the use of the word 'slave' has no leg to stand on. Would you read Shakespeare at face value only?
As for prayer, it only works if you truly believe it will. For example, if a friend had been seriously hurt, they needed an ambulance & your phones were dead, there was no one else around & you prayed for Him to find a way. Even though your prayer is a last resort, it might well be answered.
Yes, not every prayer is answered & there are 3 main arguments to this.
First, God knows what He is doing. He used servants for His work more than kings, even though He could have freed all the slaves throughout history; He often used them for his work instead. You're probably going to call that selfish, but think of it like this: God has mercy on those who need it. If slavery wasn't abolished the hard way, if God had used a king perhaps, normal people would not have had their eyes opened to what an awful thing it is and it would have just continued when that king died.
Two, faith in God includes faith in His timing. If you pray for healing from pain, it probably won't be a blinding flash of light and a chorus of angels that cure you that very next second, it will probably be a GP the next day or a consultant the following month or maybe a surgeon in two. God can send people to help people, and people don’t travel as fast as angels.
Or three, God does not exist, so He can't answer any prayers. You'd be better off taking a first aid kit and a satellite phone everywhere you went, both are tangible and reliable based on scientific study and your past experiences with them (yes, I am mocking you just a tiny bit).
Also, it says quite clearly in the Bible (although, annoyingly I can’t remember the reference) that you should not test God through prayer. And it’s right. Would you call 999 just to see if the Fire Service would come to you? So that then you could say ‘the system doesn’t work’? Of course not. Partly because you know that if your house was on fire, they actually would come. And while I’m using this analogy, let me point out, that is faith. If you’ve never had a house fire, then you don’t know from experience, and you can’t really do an experiment regarding reliability of the emergency services because there are too many factors. You have faith that they show up following your call. You have faith, even if you don’t put it in God.
Two last things before I let you attack me and twist my words. Which, can I just say, you’re pretty good at. Thorough, and consistently enthusiastic; both of which are wonderful traits.
One: You’ve said more than once ‘atheism is a response’ but you actually started this ‘discussion’. Yes, Liz posted about street pastors, but you sent a provocatively worded atheist inspired message, presumably hoping for a response. Is atheism really just a response? Can it be truly, purely passive if you can be the instigator of a ‘Christianity vs. The World’ type debate when there was no lead into it?
Two: They are called Street Pastors not Street Preachers. Only in schools have I seen it named as such, but pastoral care exists in our communities already. It is care. It is guidance, sometimes. It is finding a safe haven in a trustworthy person.
To be a pastor, you care for people, you provide comfort. To be a preacher, you, well, preach.
If you don’t believe in God, how can you believe anything the Bible says to be His words, and use it to hurt our faith in Him?
If you put no store in faith, good luck with that heart attack.
And since you’re failing to read our questions and responses properly, muddling definitions and going out on tangents, I’m lead to think that perhaps God sits heavy on your mind, and is working on your heart?
Of course not, He doesn’t even exist.
Just out of curiosity, answer me this, how did you come to be an atheist?
@katey i only pulled these verses because anon pulled a verse on me. my point is that for everything good in the bible there is plenty bad (for either side). i admit they are out of context, and the translations may be off - but it is the best you have. if you supply me with an up to date version i will happily concede. so the word 'slave' may not be up to date - but that quote also says a 'slave' should submit to cruel masters. however, this is your interpretation on the word, christians all over the world used the bible to justify modern slavery. it is not the bible that has updated the practises of religion, but society which "has dragged religion kicking and screaming into the 21st century" to quote dawkins.
in regards to prayer, i again point everyone to this research test carried out by a christian organisation: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/40765.php
with slavery again, are you saying that all the people enslaved, who died as a slave and died to fight those rights should be thankful that we all now know how bad it was? i would rather slavery never existed and we never knew how bad it was than for it to have existed and to realised how bad it was.
so praying to god to be cured relies on being cured by a GP and medical science? do you hear whats wrong with that? pray to get healed but accept that you may not get healed until you have had medical attention. what about those who dont ever seek medical attention and only pray where a lot of people die? god didnt give us medicine, science did, and if you try and counter it with 'god gave us medicine' then why did he take so long? its much more likely that we worked it out without him, i have never heard a scientist who cured a disease put it down to divine intervention.
heres a test you can do: next time you are stuck in need of medical assistance (i hope this never happens) dont phone anyone, dont use medicine but pray for god instead. see what happens. (by the way i am mocking you a tiny bit, i wouldnt want you to die, so please do call for help).
once again the word "faith" is not the right word. i dont have 'faith' the fire service will come. faith would be the belief that perhaps god would turn up himself with a hose. if i call the fire service i expect them to turn up because a) the person at the other end of the 999 call would say so b) ive seen fire trucks so i know they exist c) ive seen firemen put out fires d) there is proof that this will happen. thats not faith - its scientific reasoning.
bit harsh saying im attacking you, im not, but i am attacking your religion (which, despite the shock and horror from most religious people, is not a bad thing - feel free to attack my atheism, i welcome it) and more harsh to say im twisting words. i would like a specific example - all i am doing is using logic and reasoning to question some things.
one: the definition of atheism is that it is a response to a theistic claim. therefore it is passive in that way. my personal views are actually anti-theistic. a- means without, anti- means against. atheism itself is just the initial response. you yourself are an atheist - you only believe in 1 god but you are atheist to all the other hundreds. i just reject 1 more god than you.
i started the 'discussion' yes, and i am saddened that you feel there is something wrong with discussion. anything i have said that rejects a god is atheist, anything that i have said that is against religion is anti-theistic.
50% of the population say they have 'no religion' but because of the stigma (nice religious word) of the word 'atheist' most people wouldnt use it.
@katey part 2 - its a shame that youve started to get a bit nasty here and talk about me having a heart attack. i feel that is a very hurtful thing to say and i hope that you dont treat everyone who has a difference of opinion the same way. if i did have a heart attack though, i would hope that medicial science helps me out, not faith.
with the bible, i dont believe they are his words - but you do. and if you do then the burden of proof is on you to prove that they are his words, and defend them.
i feel i have answered all questions and read all responses clearly, please point out where this is not the case.
god doesnt sit heavy on my mind (its a common theist response to say atheists do believe in god but just reject him or turn to satan, this is not true), it is religion that does. god himself (if he did exist) doesnt affect the world, his presence isnt noted anywhere, but actions taken in his name are - thats the issue. i have no qualms with your god - but the people who do bad things in his name.
i didnt 'become' an atheist, atheism is the default position. when you are born you have no knowledge of religion, it is only with indoctrination that you learn it. i did not have this indoctrination so never had a reason to believe it was true. later in life i became more interested in religion and read more and more and here i am.
not many people fall into religion where it is not forced upon them.
@ katee and liz - i curiously clicked on twitter to see what i can only assume is a small convo about me.
katee is anything i said that relates to anything personal with you that may have hurt i apologise - but i do stand by what ive said, and everything i said was a direct response to you and used your specific examples.
liz - not sure what 15 minutes of fame i get from a tiny debate on a small blog, but its not very encouraging to see you retort to belittling the discussion.
im not angry, far from it, and if something has holes that can be picked, they should be picked. the small details can be important, even more so if there are lots of them.
and i respectfully ask you not to pray for me. i find it very condescending.
@katee this is the kind of thing i was talking about in regards to faith healing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uOY1ME19dLk
if you want to pray alongside genuine medical treatment thats fine. in fact its your right to approach it in whatever way you like. its just some results have better outcomes than others.
Fair enough, I won't pray for you. It's your choice to remain entirely anonymous as it is my choice to seek God and support someone I care about. Whatever brought you here, I hope you have learnt something and I hope you have an opportunity to discuss religion with all different groups, including those around you.
@ liz thanks, im not sure what anonymity has to do with anything though.
these types of discussions are never won or lost, sadly a lot of what has been said to me i have heard before, with some of the same flawed logic. theists rarely like their faith to be scrutinised, but this is what usually drives atheists and skeptics. its two types of people falling into two very different groups.
some seek answers, some seek questions.
Which is why I am thankful for free will and know that scrutiny is nothing new. The world would be an extremely boring place if we all thought the same and did the same. Thank you for your questions, it's useful to everyone who reads this blog.
Dear 'Essex Atheist'
I have only just stumbled upon all of these comments, and I am a little saddened by some of the discussion. Not because of what people are saying, but because of the pure blindness that seems to come across on both parts.
You say that the Bible cannot be true, and yet are happy to use a random study.
You say prayer does not work by using a medical study, and that things are just co-incidences - perhaps it is a co-incidence that those who were prayed for had more complications in their group. Maybe if no-one had prayed for them there would have been even MORE complications. This is not something I know, but it is not something that we could know either.
There are more historical accounts of 'Jesus' than there are of Julius Caeser - and in fact many many 'non-religious' academics do not deny his existence.
You are very right in what you say about those who use "religion" (and let me say now that I do not like that word at all) to allow evil to take place: and I do not believe that is God's will. When Jesus came he did not come to 'abolish' the law of the Old Testament, he came to fulfil it.
He did not abolish it because the Law in itself is good - the only problem with it was that it was being governed by sinful men. Men who wanted power, money and status. These men corrupted God's perfect law, and used it to harm people, not because they were 'religious' but because they were human. And they've been doing it ever since! Human's aren't perfect. And yet God chooses out of love and grace to choose them to fulfil his plans.
I believe in Jesus because of my reason, not because I have been indoctrinated to believe so. I am one of 5 children, all of us attended church as children. However, I am now one of the few of my siblings who go to church still, (and in fact, I now work for one) so it is clear that is was my choice, rather than my upbringing that caused me to get to know God.
Believing in God, and in the Bible, challenges me to be different to many in the world. People slate Christians because of a few Christians who got it wrong and did bad things - but don't non-Christians get it wrong too. Don't non-Christians hurt others too? It is hardly a well-thought of arguement.
The thing that makes me laugh the most is that people slate Christians because they are not perfect - and yet we never claimed to be. As a Christian, I am all too aware of my own failings, my own short-comings, and the things that I get wrong every day. I acknowledge that as a human, I am not perfect, and never can be by myself. But I believe that the more time I spend getting to know God, getting to know him and listening to him and reading his word, the more I will learn about what it means to love people.
Loving friends is easy - and yes, even non-Christians do that. But loving enemies is hard. Who can truly love their enemy, without the power of forgiveness that God gives? I give a lot of what I have away, to the poor, to charities, money that I could quite easily spend on myself. But I know that that is not how God wants me to live.
I sit down and chat to homeless people - not just throw a few pennies their way. I speak to them and ask about their families and spend time with them, even in drug squats and smelly, dirty houses. I could just give them some food and leave. But I don't. And I do not preach at them or try to convert them. I love them.
To be continued...
Last year I once again visited the Philippines. I was told before I went that there was an epidemic of Dengue Fever, and that the slums I would visit had had a spike in violent crime, gang shootings etc. It was dangerous to go, and I had to sign a disclaimer in case something happened to me. If I had cared for my own life, I probably wouldn't have gone.
And wouldn't you know, I got Dengue fever and ended up in hospital for 5 days upon my return. I was rushed to hospital, and stopped breathing twice. Thanks to what I know as prayer and support from my church, I recovered well, and have had few lasting effects of the disease (which medical DOCTORS kept telling me was Malaria... and tested me 5 times before deciding it wasn't.)
But will that stop me going back to the Philippines next year? No. Because I know how much it means to those children to have people visit them, talk to them, care about them and their families, and spend time with them. So I will return, again and again and again. Because God has given me a passion to love the poor and the marginalised. Does that make me a bad person because I am doing it through the love God has given me? I don't think so.
As for me, I will pray for you. Feel free to not pray for me. But as this is still a free country - I will pray - pray that you will find love so great, so deep and so undeserved that no rational or "atheist" response will be able to understand it.
Yours, friend,
Ami x
@Ami Wager - a bit late to the party but i will respond due to your long post.
the 'random' study i pointed to and the large group of heart surgery patients was carried out by the Templeton foundation, a christian organisation. thats why im happy to use it. yes we dont know that the one group wouldnt have been worse without prayer - but all that we do know is that that group were worse off. we also dont know that if they werent prayed for they all would have made a full 100% recovery. see my point?
saying jesus existed is very different from saying he was the son of god. could you link to any text outside the bible that proves this or witnesses any miracles? ive also read he was born in the year 3BC.
god 'chose us' but he also made us. he created us. he gave us free will in the knowledge that we would abuse it. what does that say about god? he gave us the capacity, knowing full well we would, to do evil. why?
youre story of indoctrination seems to be contradicting what you are claiming. you went to church as a child but because your other siblings dont any more that means you werent indoctrinated? that just shows that indoctrination doesnt always work - if it did we would all still be religious as a society. it was your choice to stay, but it was reinforced by years of people telling you it was true. why have i not found religion from years of no one telling me it was true?
what does god tell you about love that i cant find out without him? you are told to love jesus. if you dont you go to hell. so you dont have much choice do you.
loving an enemy and turning the other cheek is actually one of the worst teachings in the bible. im not saying we should fight an enemy, but learning to keep away from one and to not love them can be the difference between survival and death.
how does loving enemies affect giving money away? i too give lots of money to charity etc, but i dont do it because god wants me to. i do it because not everyone is as lucky as me.
would you spend time with the homeless if you thought god didnt want you to? if yes, then you are a good person regardless of your religion, if no then you should think about your motivations for doing the right thing
to be continued...
@ami part 2: its great you have done some great work, we are a weird and wonderful species - capable of the worst evil and the great altruism.
i have to say though, from your story it sounds like modern medicine saved you, not prayer, although the comfort it gave you and the support of your family may well have had a positive effect. interesting the doctors kept testing you until there were sure they knew what was wrong. science is not afraid to admit when it is wrong, and strives to find the right answers - not just the first or easiest.
have i ever said that doing something good because god told you to is bad? hell no. i wouldnt care if you were doing good things in the name of jesus, satan or kermit the frog. its your actions that are important, not always why you do them.
as for praying, thanks for the gesture, i take more comfort in the fact you wish others well than asking some sky god to find me love (i guess you are praying that i find love for god, because i have all the other kinds of love we feel). i dont pray, so wont for you, but i do wish you well and hope you respond to my response.
however, it is very patronising when a xtian tells an atheist that we are missing out on this 'love' you keep talking about. so in return i hope you find logic, reasoning and enlightenment in the real world - its not that scary.
At this point, I would like to say that, whatever we do as human beings, whether it's for God that we do something, or for something else, if we're all helping each other and not neglecting those on the fringes of society, if we're seeking to make the world a better place (which one can do through giving money, gifts or time) then we're all moving in the right direction. Everyone wants to feel safe and loved, we draw our comfort from different things and experiences that have taught us how to feel.
Thank you for your comments from the very beginning, discussing the pro's and con's of what people do is always interesting.
Dear “EssexAtheist”
I had a look back through your own comments, and have decided to take your advice:
“If something has holes that can be picked, they should be picked. The small details can be important...”
Yes, it is a random study. Just because it was performed by Christians does not equate nor nullify the things they found. It was one random study. Let me point you to another article that seems to show that prayer works: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/778564.stm
The point I am trying to make is that neither article provides ‘Proof’. But who, out of the two of us, needs proof? I believe in the power of prayer, despite what any study will tell me. You do not. Seeing as neither of us can provide definitive proof, why try and tell someone that believes in prayer that they are wrong? You seem to care that people believe in prayer, why? Does it affect you? Does any conversation that I, or anyone else, has with a Deity affect you that much?
Firstly, why does it really matter if Jesus was born in 3BC... but if you want some evidence of Jesus outside of the Bible, check out this website:
http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/Is_There_Evidence_for_Jesus_Outside_the_Bible
God gave us freewill because he knew the importance of us choosing our own lives for ourselves. If there were no such thing as freewill, nobody would have a choice to worship God, or do what he said, and what fun would there be in that? He knew the power of testimony, of grace, of mercy, of Jesus dying on the cross would mean much more in history if humans had a choice about it. What point would there be to life otherwise?
So what it says about God is this: he loves us that much. He loved us enough to let us go our own way – to let us choose our paths for ourselves. Like a parent has to do for their children. And why do we think that the evil in the world does not affect God? He cries and hurts for every one of his children that do so too. He longs for us (those who choose to follow His ways) to put right the evil in the world – to use our power and freedom to triumph over evil.
You contradict yourself with your story of indoctrination. Just because you did not find religion and were not brought up in a Christian home means that everyone brought up in a Christian home and does still go to church is indoctrinated? Surely that means the same for you then – you were not brought up in a Christian home and you are not a Christian so therefore you have been indoctrinated to be an Atheist! (Utter crap that is.) People choose to be Christians. I have chosen it. My brothers and sisters have not. That doesn’t mean that I have been indoctrinated and it “didn’t work” on them. I know hundreds of people who became Christians as adults who were not brought up in Christian homes.
You say that “Not many people fall into religion where it is not forced upon them.” But on the contrary: There are thousands of people who are discovering faith every day – in places where it is dangerous to do so. The persecuted church in the East is growing day by day – and they are not indoctrinated by Christianity – quite the opposite, and yet they believe they have found something that is worth suffering for, worth losing relatives for, worth being locked up in prison for, worth dying for.
I am not told to love Jesus. The love I have for God and Jesus comes as a result of learning about what He did for me. Love for God comes naturally, obedience to him comes as a result of that love. I do not love God because of a fear of hell... I love him because I have found my life has meaning when I obey the things he teaches.
The way I see it is this. Believing in God and what he has done makes me life better both on earth, and, if there happens to be an afterlife (which I believe there is) after my body dies as well. You have chosen not to believe. So you will live life as you want and when you die, regardless of whether there is an afterlife or not – you’ve got a good chance of not ending up in heaven. I’m not a gambler, but my odds seem to come out better to me.
Part 2:
You have misunderstood the purpose of ‘turning the other cheek’. What greater way to fight an enemy is there than to love them? If blowing them up had worked, why are we always fighting wars? As a Christian, I am not overly worried about whether I die or not. I believe that love is worth dying for. I will strive to love my enemies, because that is going beyond what the “world” teaches. If it came to it, and I had the choice between loving an enemy, and survival – I know what I would choose. Because I believe that I have something worth dying for. And if you don’t have something worth dying for – what on earth are you living for?
I want to point you now to an incident that happened 56 years ago yesterday – to a guy named Jim Elliot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Elliot) Him and a group of 4 other friends travelled into a remote part of Ecuador because they believed that they had something that needed to be given away. (The Gospel of Jesus/Faith in God etc) They actually ended up being killed, because they were willing to risk their lives to share this gospel with a remote tribe. You might say that they were stupid to have gone there, and that had they not been Christian they might still be alive – but that isn’t the point. The point is that they didn’t care if they died – because they believed what they had was worth dying for. Is what you have worth dying for? And if so, would you die for it?
Jim Elliot very famously wrote once: "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." Jim Elliot had realised that life is fleeting. People die. So why not give up life for the glory of God – something that now he cannot lose.
You say that you give lots of money to charity, and you do so because “not everyone is as lucky as me.” So how poor would you have to be before you stopped giving money to charity? The difference between our giving is that I do so out of love for others, even those that I do not know – and it is a love that will last right down to my last penny. If I saw a real need, and I had not much, I would go without to give to others. Everything I have belongs not to me, but to God. How much would you go without to give to others?
Modern medicine did not save me – because they didn’t give me any! The doctors refused to admit that it was not Malaria, and gave me Ibuprofen – which is dangerous to those with Dengue as it can cause bleeding. (They did eventually stop giving it to me....) So I doubt very much that anything the doctors did, (other than drain me of lots of blood) was very helpful to my recovery.
You say that actions are important – not always why you do them, and yet you earlier questioned why I spend time with homeless people. If actions are important, what do Atheists (or Antitheists) do to make the world a better place? I am interested.
You do not believe in the power of prayer, and yet you “wish”? What good will that do me? If I had the choice between the power of God and the power of a childhood fairy, I know which one I’d pick.
And yes, I do believe there is a love that as an Atheist you could not understand. It is a love that is undeserved and cannot be earned, a love that is everlasting, and is not affected by whatever wrongdoing I undertake. It is the love from a Creator to his Creation, which, unless you believe in the Created and the Creator, you will not know, and not even begin to understand. After all, I have known about it for many years, and still it astounds me and surprises me on occasion.
Hope all of my response makes sense, I am enjoying this conversation.
Love and prayers to you...
Ami xx
A comment from @EssexAtheist from 5/01
"@liz i agree totally, except that i often see religion trying the exact opposite of trying to move the world forwards. too often it is trying to take us back to the dark ages.
for example, the recent increase in faith schools in the UK and the increase in creationism being taught over evolution. based on on the bible, by people who think the genesis story and noahs ark were real stories.
this is not moving the world forward, but actively supressing childrens minds and telling them that we already have all the answers. when your religion, and others, stop affecting the world be live in in a negative way, then maybe we can all move on."
I only have one word for you 'Communism' - the greatest oppressor in the world, and religion free, but, like Ami said, also the place where religion grows the fastest.
Here here Liz! Doesn't look like the 'anti-theists' seem to be doing any better!
At least most in the church have accepted that what their forefathers did in the name of "God" was wrong... don't see any apologies coming from North Korea...
@ami part 1: what is your definition of random? one scientific study shouldnt be ingored, it should be counted along with others. the study you linked to does not provide enough information. it doesnt mention a control subject, im not sure how you have a placebo prayer? as far as i know everyone tested believed in prayer, therefore the idea of psychosomatic influences would come into it. whats interesting about this study compared to the one i linked to is that all these patients where aware of the prayer etc - that means you dont know if its god helping them or if its psychosomatic. in my test they compare those who know they are being prayed for and those who dont. id like to see a positive link to prayer in a test with a control group that dont know they are being prayed for.
actually if it is proved through study and evidence that prayer is real then i will believe in it. i know you dont need proof, thats the most important ingredient in religion. for me, this is sad. religion has taught you that knowledge is bad (blame eve for that if you like) and that questioning, evidence, logic and reasoning are also bad. most modern liberal christians though lead a double life - you use those things every day in your life, but leave them at the door when it comes to your faith and what you want to be true.
it kinda matters when jesus was born because if he wasnt born when the bible says then it kinda throws doubt into how accurate the bible is. if the bible is wrong about some aspects of jesus then how do we know it isnt wrong about most things?
thanks for the link - i never said he didnt exist though. its interesting the only accounts of jesus listed start only as early as 51AD and go up to 1000AD. and the rest are from the bible. you cant use the bible to prove itself. thats circular reasoning.
free will is interesting. god gives us the choice to believe in him or not but he holds a gun to our head. oh you can chose not the believe in god, but you will burn in hell forever if you dont! some choice! but no, its much more 'fun' that most people end up burning in hell.
he may have known the power of testimony, but he missed the power of evidence.
heres my issue: god built us. have gave us the power to sin (i dont know if you believe the genesis story literally), knowing full well (he is omnipotent and omniscient) we would sin. he also makes the rules that if we sin we go to hell, knowing that we will. he then sends himself (as jesus) to be sacraficed to himself to create a loophole he created. the reasoning there is baffling.
if you are raised a christian and go to church you are indoctrinated. whether it works or not is different. you cant be indoctrinated into atheism, its the default position. you may have chosen, but you may also just feel like you have chosen. years of reinforcement of the christian logic means it just makes sense to you. believe me, the first time you hear it it certainly doesnt make sense. you are told over and over again when you are growing up that its hard to break, this means when you 'chose' it is hard to chose any other way.
lots of people look for religion - it is easy to find religion when you are looking for it. i meant the people who arent looking and arent religious. how many of those suddenly find religion?
ok so youre not told to love jesus. but if you dont you go to hell. that isnt your main reason for loving him, but it is certainly christianitys plan B.
@ami part 2: and you end part 1 on pascals wager. i didnt chose to be atheist - it is up to religion to convert the human default position. some people are atheist although they would love it to be true (ricky gervais for example).
i am forlorn at a system that will punish me eternally (we dont even go that far for murderers in our society!) just because i dont accept jesus (with good reason). you think im going to hell - it is a horrible thought, you dont have to think like that. i dont think you are going to heaven, but im reasssured because it means i dont think billions of people are going to hell.
are your odds really that good? there are 200 religions, you only accept 1 more than me. what if judaism is correct? or islam? then we are both going to hell.
so in every situation you have to fight in you would turn the other cheek? most civilisations that believe this have been wiped out. its sad, but its the way the world works. if people really believed this worked, we wouldnt have wars. its idealist, its not practical.
there are some things worth dying for. you dont mind dying because you get another go in the afterlife - if i sacrificed my life it would be much more significant and a bigger gesture no?
jim didnt care if he died. but he did. he missed out on life on the off chance his religion was correct. does that mean you think all those who have died in the name of other religions died for no reason?
the only things i would consider worth dying for are perhaps to save others, children probably, or to save humanity or to fight a cause like the racial activists have. to die for religion - when you can get into heaven without sacrificing yourself - seems unnecessary to me.
why should jim not give up his life? because there is a very good chance there is no heaven, and he has wasted his only time in this universe and missed out on a lot. why dont most christians do the same then?
granted you may go hungry for others, i would not. is that religion talking? nope. i consider my survival paramount in certain situations (thats evolution talking) but im sure there are plenty of atheists who would think the way you do. its not god that makes you do that - its pure altruism, and is a truly wonderful thing.
the body is incredible, it can heal itself. would you have died if you had not been drained of blood do you think? or been kept in a hospital? how much better would you have survived in your bed at home?
actions are important, i questioned why you spent time with the homeless but the answer isnt important, just that you do. are you saying atheists dont make the world a better place? i dont think you are but if you are you should do some research. atheism is a single issue on religion - any good or evil carried out by an atheist is not in the name of religion (unlike the good and evil done in the name of god). any good i do is not because i am an atheist, that is irrelevant, its because im a good person and want to be part of a successful society.
it is very condescending to think i can not experience the same love you feel but for other things. many atheists who were christians have spoken about this love and yet none regret leaving it behind. none say it is better than being atheist. im happy that im not missing out if some of the people i respect and enjoy reading are happy to leave it behind. i will post a good link when i can find one, not that easy actually.
once again, please dont pray for me ;)
to Liz and Ami - communism is not the opposite of theocracy. i happen to be a secularist. communism is the opposite to capitalism, the type of society we live in. communism often works under a dictator who has a god-like status and you worship the state - look at stalins russia. it isnt that dissimilar to religion.
capitalism works perfectly well as a secular society - look at america (church state separation) or sweden and japan (80% of the population is atheist)
imagine in this country that there were only muslim clerics on the house of lords? would you be happy?
i am all for the freedom of religion, but i am against having to pay for it myself. the church should pay tax and religion should be kept out of religion and politics.
this is not because of personal preference - this is because of equality and fairness.
@essexatheist Surely the default position is agnosticism, i.e. not sure whether he exists or not.
Atheism is on the opposite end of the scale believer----non-believer, so u can be indoctrinated into not believing! It has been said that Richard Dawkins shouldn't lay into God as without the existence of God, he would be out of a job and would not have sold any books!
Surely if Jesus was born in 3BC then it would actually be 0AD as BC means before christ and AD is Anni Domini (year of our lord). Its like me saying "o we have just found out that water actually boils at 99c and freezes at -1c", well as the celsius/centigrade scale is actually based on water freezing and boiling my results are meaningless!
He did not miss the power of evidence at all, if I stood in front of you and turned water into wine, you would think i was a magician not christ! It is Christ's teaching and his sacrifice that people have to "believe" in.
If you were there 2000 odd years ago would you still have been an atheist watching some stranger on a wooden cross bleeding to death? Probably unless you recognised who he was and why he was doing it.
We are all looking for the reason for our existence and what is the point of our life, what our purpose is, some find religion, some find the christian faith and some are still clueless till the day they die.
On the point of the date Jesus was born, does it really matter? We have a different calendar to the Jews and every other religion has it's own dates and it's own way of breaking up their years. I'm looking forward to celebrating Chinese New Year in a few weeks, knowing that I am have celebrated a new year already.
@phil - agnosticism is the dealing of knowledge, an agnostic says you cannnot know if god exists, a gnostic says their know god does or doesnt exist. atheism and theism deal with beliefs. they are not on the same scale.
you can be indoctrinated into believing, i also mentioned that, but to do so would use a lot more logic, reasoning and evidence. most atheists teach their children to always question and make their own minds up. that is much more fair.
actually dawkins is a biology professor formally of oxford. he has more books out on biology and evolution than his one book that attacks religion. its just that hes a good spokesman for atheism.
your AD BC argument is ridiculous. whether jesus was born in 3BC, 0 or 2012 we have already committed to the calender, we would change it if we found out otherwise.
if god knew that all the tricks wouldnt work then why are there so many miracles and tricks in the bible? miracles are a huge part of some people beliefs. teachings alone arent proof of a supernatural being. is the resurrection not subject to being perceived as a 'trick'?
2000 years ago i would have been uneducated and living in the bronze age. we know so much more now. religion was the first attempt at making sense of the universe. we have more magical and amazing answers now.
i am not looking for a supernatural reason for my existence. it is the natural arrogant assumption of the human species that we are too good for this universe.
my reason for living? to enjoy my time on earth. not much else too it. you may say im still clueless at death - but i live my life knowing this is my only chance so i must appreciate it, you cant wait till your afterlife and so may not appreciate this life as much.
@phil - agnosticism is the dealing of knowledge, an agnostic says you cannnot know if god exists, a gnostic says their know god does or doesnt exist. atheism and theism deal with beliefs. they are not on the same scale.
you can be indoctrinated into believing, i also mentioned that, but to do so would use a lot more logic, reasoning and evidence. most atheists teach their children to always question and make their own minds up. that is much more fair.
actually dawkins is a biology professor formally of oxford. he has more books out on biology and evolution than his one book that attacks religion. its just that hes a good spokesman for atheism.
your AD BC argument is ridiculous. whether jesus was born in 3BC, 0 or 2012 we have already committed to the calender, we would change it if we found out otherwise.
if god knew that all the tricks wouldnt work then why are there so many miracles and tricks in the bible? miracles are a huge part of some people beliefs. teachings alone arent proof of a supernatural being. is the resurrection not subject to being perceived as a 'trick'?
2000 years ago i would have been uneducated and living in the bronze age. we know so much more now. religion was the first attempt at making sense of the universe. we have more magical and amazing answers now.
i am not looking for a supernatural reason for my existence. it is the natural arrogant assumption of the human species that we are too good for this universe.
my reason for living? to enjoy my time on earth. not much else too it. you may say im still clueless at death - but i live my life knowing this is my only chance so i must appreciate it, you cant wait till your afterlife and so may not appreciate this life as much.
@liz - it doesnt matter at all. but i would thought it matters to you. i would be uncomfortable with such important details so hazy.
id be be worried about basing my entire worldview on something that doesnt know when jesus was born, who wrote the bible and who chose which books were left in or taken out of the bible? was the book of judas not written under inspiration from god?
How many times has the calendar changed in the last 2000-odd years?
Jesus is still alive today and that, for me, eclipses questions that might be asked about Jesus' birth.
If it is worrying for you, you should do some research.
We do know who chose the books, who wrote the creeds we still say today and for me, they are all still relevant and surpass time and dates.
@liz even if we found out jesus was born in 1942 we wouldnt change the calender. lots of these things religion helped set up (calender, christmas etc) have surpassed their religious connections.
do you actually believe jesus is alive and walking around today? or do you just mean hes 'alive' in heaven looking down on us all? its its the former, then you are insane.
its not worrying for me - my worldview is based on fact and evidence.
who chose which books would stay in and be left out of the bible then? in some versions of the bible it even says before each book if it was anonymous or not. the bible is a copy made from copies of translations on copies. who knows what the very original texts said and who actually wrote them.
What current facts and evidence disprove the existence of god?
hey anonymous - it doesnt work like that. the burden of proof is on you. you make the claim god exists so you have to prove he exists.
as the wonderful late christopher hitchens says: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
what proof do you have fairies or unicorns dont exist? or all the other gods? see how it doesnt work.
Hi Essex, thanks for your quick reply.
Thats not how it works, the supernatural by its very definition cannot be proved by scientific means. Again its about faith. Christian theorlogy is very compeex in th way that you dont just have a physical being (Jesus) you have both the father and the holy spirt. God and the holy spirit by their very definition cannot be quantified because they are not physical things.
Your argument that claims must always be backed up by proof is an excellent one and is one that works very well in the scentific community (and particularly the medical one). But does not always hold true. You are aware that the general consensus in the scientific community is that over 90% of our universe is made of "Dark Matter" which itself has never been seen or properly proven to exist. No actual evidence of its existence yet we know that somthing is missing despite not being able to quantify it.
You can come up with all kinds of arguments potentially undermining the bible but the fact remains that if you believe god exists then you have to believe in the possibility of miricles etc. so I come back to my original question,
How sure are you personally that god definitely doesn't exist?
Kind Regards
Martin
@anon/martin if god can manifest in reality - that is, if he can affect the real world, answer prayer, stop disasters, help tim tebow - then he can be tested for by science. if he cannot affect the real world, or chooses not to, he is impotent. if miracles are real we can test them scientifically.
the only time faith is used, and is called 'virtuous', is with religion. if we used faith for anything else it would fail. read what i said to philpot about faith further up.
quantum mechanics and dark matter etc is a theoretical area. it isnt always about anything tangible, but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. the higs-boson is interesting, its a particle that gives matter to everything, yet it hasnt been seen yet. doesnt mean it doesnt exist. however, no one is being sent to hell in the name of dark matter. we dont have anywhere near the evidence for god than we do for dark matter.
i may come up with arguments against the bible, but just as the bible isnt the main source of most peoples faith, the bible isnt the main source of my atheism.
im not sure you understand burden of proof. i am born, i have no religion - suddenly a priest tells me god exists. it is up to him to prove to me he does.
atheism is nothing more than the rejection of the 'evidence' given for god. think about the quote i gave you in the last post - if you dont provide any evidence then i can dismiss it without any evidence.
i am not definitely sure god doesnt exist, i accept that the possibility is there - just as much as the possibility that allah, zeus or unicorns exists.
i just say there is such a small chance god exists that i wont waste my life following him blindly.
"if god can manifest in reality - that is, if he can affect the real world, answer prayer, stop disasters, help tim tebow - then he can be tested for by science. if he cannot affect the real world, or chooses not to, he is impotent. if miracles are real we can test them scientifically."
Again, not true. how can you scientifically test whether prayer works or doesn't work? who would be your control group and how would you make sure that no one in the world was praying for them?
Also the point you made about if God choses not to intervene with natural disasters then he is impotent is a very individalistic view. You are making this assumption based on your knowledge right now, you have no idea what the consiquences of the natural disaters not happening would be.
"the only time faith is used, and is called 'virtuous', is with religion. if we used faith for anything else it would fail. read what i said to philpot about faith further up."
Agreed, faith and science dont mix. however it is not true that the only time faith is a virtue is when it is used in the religious context, people can say that they have faith in humanity, you can have faith that your team will win the FA cup. Faith is a very powerful virtue to have, it has the ability to inspire people to tremendous acts of bravery and conversely horrendus acts of brutality.
"quantum mechanics and dark matter etc is a theoretical area. it isnt always about anything tangible, but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist."
So like god then
"The higs-boson is interesting, its a particle that gives matter to everything, yet it hasnt been seen yet. doesnt mean it doesnt exist."
Again, like god
"However, no one is being sent to hell in the name of dark matter."
Do you think everyone deserves to go to heaven? If not what would be your exclusion criteria?
"We dont have anywhere near the evidence for god than we do for dark matter."
We dont have any actual proof for either so the analogy holds
"I may come up with arguments against the bible, but just as the bible isnt the main source of most peoples faith, the bible isnt the main source of my atheism."
This is fair enough
"Im not sure you understand burden of proof. i am born, i have no religion - suddenly a priest tells me god exists. it is up to him to prove to me he does. atheism is nothing more than the rejection of the 'evidence' given for god. think about the quote i gave you in the last post - if you dont provide any evidence then i cant dismiss it without any evidence."
This is a very dificult question to answer. you can't prove or disprove god by scientific means. its all about faith and personal testimony. My own personal faith pretty much from observation of the natuaral world and particularly the universe. the beauty of it all overwhelms me every time I look at it. I refuse to believe that it all just came to being by random chance.
i just say there is such a small chance god exists that i wont waste my life following him blindly.
Do you think people who become christians become worse people?
Martin
EssexAthiest you have some interesting points that you have raised. Although you have your views and opinions it seems to me you are just using them to start arguments and it doesn't look like you will win.
I noticed a comment you made that its down to us to prove that god exists, but to me the proof he exists is the world that we live in the universe all of creation, that hasnt happened by accident. I believe in evolution to some part that humans and animals have had to adapt to its surroundings but that's since the creation of the world.
On the other hand isn't it down to you to prove to us that god doesn't exist?
There are people out there who have encountered god whilst praying or worshiping have had powerful feelings inside them like no other, for me it seemed that I was not in control of my own body like I was in another place.
There are millions upon millions of people who believe in god and have encountered feelings like that, on the reverse side, I'm sure there are millions who haven't.
It's all about faith, people have faith, there is a greater power looking down on us, it helps people live their lives and if it gives them comfort believing that one day we will be going to a better place so what?
Do you have faith or believe in anything? The way you see us as Tottenham Hotspur Fans, they all have faith and believe they're going to win the league and you as an outsider know it's not going to happen. But if the fans believe and enjoy the football it makes them happier to go to work and live life to the full because there's the faith in their hearts what's the issue you have with that?
End of the day mate we aren't going to know 100% for sure but I'm sure in my heart that there is a god, a creator out there who one day I'll meet.
@anon ill repost the study i posted to before: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/40765.php
if prayer does work then you can test for it. all you have to do is prove that there is no other way an outcome can happen without supernatural intervention. the point is, your god is meant to be able to manifest in reality and affect the world - if this is the case he will have to alter reality, therefore he can be tested for. if he cant be tested for then there is no difference between the statements 'he cant affect reality' and 'he doesnt exist'.
i know the consequence of that natural disaster, at the very least, is the death of how ever many people. please tell me what would happen if a volcano was stopped? god doesnt stop, or cant stop, natural disasters, disease or all the other bad things that happen due to nature.
you are wrong about faith again. i dont have faith in humanity - i know through evidence that humans can do great things. thats not faith! i dont have faith my team win the FA cup, i have hope. if my team are very good then its not faith because i have evidence that they have won it before and have a winning team that i have seen beat others. this is not faith. faith is invented by religion to make you believe something without evidence. if you find something i use faith for, guess what? i will stop believing it.
i agree those examples i used are like god. however there is evidence dark matter and the higgs boson exist. there is no evidence that gets anywhere near evidence like that. these types of things can even be proved with just maths, god cannot.
like i said, if god could manifest in reality we could easily prove if he exists or not, using science. however, until he decides to make any sort of appearance or affect in our world we can prove or disprove him with science. interestingly, the beauty of the natural world and our universe convinces me, and plenty of other atheists, that god doesnt exist. i find it hard to believe a god so petty, bloodthirsty and obsessed and fussy with small details would put into practise such a complex set of events to create such a huge universe. hes more likely to create man from dust and woman from ribs.
i dont think you become worse people - most christians are christian before they are fully formed as individuals and so their religion shapes their person. the only thing religion has done to you is suspend your reasoning abilities, logic and critical thinking towards your own religion. no doubt you use those skills on a daily basis, and even towards other religions, i just wish you would use those skills on your own religion.
to quote shysicist Steven Weinberg "With or without [religion], you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
@jimmi i dont expect to win any argument or 'convert' anyone, its all about discussion for discussions sake. my issue is religion teaches not to question it, and there is a stigma in the world about questioning religion. i think anything that tries to control us as much as religion deserves to be examined.
the world around us isnt proof of anything except the world exists. your argument is a fallacy called the argument from ignorance - because you dont know how something happened doesnt mean it took supernatural means. you cant leap from "i dont think it could happen by accident" to "god did it". you have taken a big leap and you havent answered how god has the power to do it or who created god.
we dont adapt, evolution is blind. something can survive genetically without it actually having a huge benefit to the species. if you think that then you dont know enough about evolution. if you didnt believe in creation would you feel the same? do you think the world is about 10,000 years old? if you make that claim then it is up to you to prove it.
you make the claim, you prove it. you claim there is a god, you have to prove it. i dont make the claim there is no god. atheism isnt a claim. its a reaction to a claim. you have the burden of proof.
personal experience is fine, but what is interesting that i know atheists who were religious and described the same things you have said. they are now atheist. you can attribute any feeling you want towards god, this is not proof he exists, just proof that you want him to exist. we have a word for the phenomenon of people who can can actually hear god, or anyone else, and its psychosis.
no doubt religion gives comfort to plenty, but i actually care about whether my beliefs are true or not. i have no issue with a personal faith that comforts you - i have issue that your religion goes far beyond just that. if your religion is just about feeling warm inside why are there bishops in the house of lords helping make laws? why are there christians trying to deny homosexuals the same marraige rights? this is the issue.
now spurs fans dont have faith they will win the league - the evidence shows they can win the league. faith is believing something without evidence. faith would be bolton fans saying they can win the league. i believe lots of things - i have faith in nothing. believe is accepting something to the best of your knowledge, as soon as you have any evidence it stops becoming faith.
im worried about how every single person who has commented here doesnt know what 'faith' actually means. you all seem to think we use faith every day and its good to have faith.
faith is required in religion because there is no evidence. faith is useless in any other use. you have been told for years and years that faith is good and useful because it reinforces your religious beliefs. time to wake up and smell the coffee, faith is useless once you step out of your church.
Again i would like to see how in reality they ensured that the control group recieved absolutely no prayer whatsoever. because they cant produce a proper control group this is not a good study.
If god influences people to say or do things which then have knock on effects on other people this can't be tested. What would you compare it to?
Volcano eruptions and seisemic activity are all part of the earths lifecycle. Without them this planet would not function. Mmore importantly again you are lookinga t this from your perspective and not gods, If stopping 1 eruption or tsunami and saving 10,000 lives results in another tsunami a few years later that kills millions its kindve a no brainer which should be picked.
Definitions...
faith
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
hope
1. To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment
Actually the football fan will have both. football fans supporting clubs who lose week in week out still go and support their team til the bitter end. This is faith, there is no evidence to back up the fact that they will win this week but the fan believes that this week will be different. To say that faith is made up by relgion alone is utter nonsense.
"i agree those examples i used are like god. however there is evidence dark matter and the higgs boson exist. there is no evidence that gets anywhere near evidence like that. these types of things can even be proved with just maths, god cannot."
Exatcly my point god cannot be proved or disproved by scientific means. We are discussing philosopy, not science.
"interestingly, the beauty of the natural world and our universe convinces me, and plenty of other atheists, that god doesnt exist. i find it hard to believe a god so petty, bloodthirsty and obsessed and fussy with small details would put into practise such a complex set of events to create such a huge universe. hes more likely to create man from dust and woman from ribs."
Again you and I know nothing about this. For all we know this may be the only way to create a universe properly. This is all complete theoretical speculation. As a scientist I know that the earth was not created in 6 days but as a christian I believe that god could have done this if he wanted. Again you and I dont know what the outcomes of either option are.
"i dont think you become worse people - most christians are christian before they are fully formed as individuals and so their religion shapes their person."
Do you have numbers to back this up or this just a random claim? What about people who come to christ in their adult lives?
"The only thing religion has done to you is suspend your reasoning abilities, logic and critical thinking towards your own religion. no doubt you use those skills on a daily basis, and even towards other religions, i just wish you would use those skills on your own religion."
i did, it took me 10 years to get to where I am today. Have you ever been in love? How would you scientifically rationise the feelings people in love have for each other? i mean you can explain the chemistry and neurological signs but why fall in love with a particular individual?
"to quote shysicist Steven Weinberg "With or without [religion], you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
Define what constiutes a good or a bad thing. Do good charitable, law abiding atheists swear, gossip get angry at others? Would you consider these to be good things?
Martin
@anon - this experiment was examining the prayers of a prayer group. that group of prayers had no effect on the patients. as for the group who werent prayed for (about 700 people i think), im sure many of them werent prayed for. unless you account that any random prayer to keep people healthy counts as a prayer for them. if thats the case then why doesnt god help more people.
god influencing people is a very vague term. when i say god can manifest in reality i am talking about the hundreds of years during the stories of the bible where he affects reality seemingly on a daily basis. burning bushes, raising the dead, curing the ill etc etc. its a shame he doesnt do that any more in a time where we can scientifically test it.
no doubt stopping one earthquake could create more problems down the line but think about this: there are about 1 billion billion stars in the universe. why put us on a dangerous, unstable one when there must surely be better planets for safety? or why not create a world without natural disasters and disease? he makes the rules after all. seems a bit cruel to me.
i dont agree with your faith definition. i think you can have faith that can be shaken. i think you can not believe something strongly but have faith things work out. atheists ive certainly spoken to have had faith without it being particularly strong and hard to break.
football fans support a team week in week out regardless of win or losing - that isnt faith. thats commitment. most will go knowing they probably wont win and just hope they dont. sport can often suprise you. when i go to a game expecting to lose - i dont have faith we will win, i have hope. faith would be me going to the game saying "i know we will win". that is just not correct.
faith is only used by religion. you havent demonstrated when the correct definition of faith is used anywhere else. faith is to believe something without evidence. i dont use faith in my life ever, and you dont have any example where i do.
i never talked about actually being able to disprove god, i always said atheism isnt about that. you have the burden of proof, though, you have to be able to prove your religion is true and you cant.
surely a god who is omnipotent can create a universe in any way he wants. if he cant, he is not omnipotent and therefore is subject to a higher force than himself. the god of christianity is powerful enough to create the universe how he wishes. this makes him cruel. then you say he could have created the world in 6 days. which is it? he is either not capable of creating a world without these things or he is but choses not to.
if religion got most of its followers during adult lives then they wouldnt be as interested in running schools, recruiting youth (i know so many youth pastors), running youth groups and indoctrination. read this article for info: http://tiny.cc/jk3u0
where is the recruitment drive for the adults? seems only the door to door religions are doing that.
love is interesting. initially it is physical attration, perhaps personality similarities. but these affections grow over time. people grow comfortable in each other presence. there are periods of infactuation, anger, lust, boredom. we are biologically tuned to love. some animals have similar life partners. our entire life is chemical reactions. i rationalise it the same way i rationalise the desire to fight, or eat and many other things. theres nothing special about love compared to all the other ways our bodies work. its just the one that feels the best. rage is one of the worst, doesnt make it special.
the quote is just a quote, you have to look at its overall meaning not the (slightly weak) use of the words good and bad. its a comment on the fact that perfectly nice, kind, good people can persecute others based only on religion. someone may have no issue with homosexuals, but because it says its wrong in the bible they will fight against those peoples freedoms.
"I am not definitely sure god doesnt exist, I accept that the possibility is there - just as much as the possibility that allah, zeus or unicorns exists."
Hate to break it to you "EssexAtheist" but if you aren't definitely sure then you aren't really an Atheist...
Also, your mere understanding of Indoctrination means that you totally contradict yourself. To indoctrinate means: "To teach (a person or group of people) systematically to accept doctrines, esp uncritically."
If, for the mere fact that I HAVE questioned faith in the past, and questioned teaching, and come to my own conclusion about it, and the mere fact that my brothers and sisters have also questioned it, and come to THEIR own conclusions about what they were taught means that none of us have been indoctrinated.
Also, you say that we claim that God exists therefore it is up to us to PROVE it by YOUR means is a very narrowminded view of 'proof'. The fact that you will only accept scientific 'proven' fact is ludicrous. Wasn't it scientists who told everyone the world was flat? And until electricity was discovered no-one really knew anything about it? The fact that scientists cannot even really agree on how the Earth and everything in it came into being... they call Evolution a THEORY because it has not yet been proven. Apes have opposable thumbs... so then you JUMP to the conclusion that humans were once monkeys... talk about filling in the gaps! Also, the Big Bang THEORY. If any of this was proved without a matter of a doubt by SCIENTIFIC means then it wouldn't just be a theory there would it?
My definition of random is this: ONE. You have shown ONE scientific study that appears to prove prayer doesn’t exist. I will say it again... you cannot know what would have happened without the prayer so you cannot say that it is proof.
Religion hasn’t taught me that knowledge is bad... I’m not religious. I have faith in God, and I know that I do not know all the answers. And I’m okay with that. I seek the truth, not earthly answers. My logic and reasoning has told me that humans doing things the way humans want to do stuff means people get hurt, and suffering occurs. So don’t tell me what is logic... for the non-religious part of society says it’s okay to spend more money on make-up globally than on healthcare for women in developing countries. It is selfish and individualistic. And THATS not the kind of logic I want to be a part of.
If I can’t use the Bible to prove stuff about God then you can’t use science to prove stuff about science. Talk about logic. That’s stupid.
Hey, our parents teach us that we shouldn’t put wet fingers into electric sockets but then leave us to make our own choice. Oh, but they are totally putting a gun up to our head because if we do that then we get electrocuted. Duh. We all have choices to make every day, and yeah, the consequence of some of those choices is going to be bad. That’s why it’s called a choice, hello!
I find your reasoning baffling.
Who says Atheism is the default position? If we study the history, going back thousands of years... I’d say most people had a faith/religion of some kind. Even people in the jungle who have had no contact with the outside world have some kind of ‘God’s that they “pray” or “worship”. Not so much the default position there....
I would like to correct you. Lots of people look for God. They find religion because it is the most public outworking of God’s people... but that doesn’t always mean that they find what they are looking for.
I am forlorn that you are so narrow-minded that you have dismissed all the evidence and are instead waiting for something (I’m not sure what... Jesus to turn up in your bedroom?) before you believe the possibility of God. I don’t want you to go to Hell, hence why we’ve tried to tell you about Jesus and what he’s done for you, so that you may spend eternity in paradise. But at the end of the day, it is your decision. If you truly believe that life on earth is all you’re here for, good for you. Have fun on earth. But don’t say that we haven’t tried.
Just because I have chosen to follow Jesus doesn’t mean that I think all the other religions are ‘untrue’. There are 6 major religions... at least 2 of them have root in some of what I believe. I am not God, I don’t know all the answers. I think there are good things about all of the major 6, the giving to the poor, the promotion of selfless behaviour. I have decided that Jesus is the one for me. He has changed my life, and I want to tell others about that. If someone else is a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu I will respect their decisions. I don’t see why we cannot worship alongside each other in harmony. I do not believe in killing others because they are a different religion.
As I said before, survival is not my ultimate goal. So you survive one fight, and another, and another. You will still die eventually. I have accepted that my life will end, so I am not too worried about when that will be. While I remain, I will serve God. When I go, I will enjoy him eternally. It’s a win-win for me.
So “atheists” would consider dying to save humanity... so will you be the first to sign up for any future Apollo missions then? Interested that you are prepared to die to save others, but you won’t go hungry for them? Bit of a strange bit of logic you’ve got there....
So once again we come to the discussion of actions. I’ve told you loads of things I do because of my beliefs. Care to share any of yours? Cause to be honest, I’m not so bothered about “atheists” in general, I am having a conversation with you, and just as I don't like to be boxed with millions of others who share similar views, I am sure you would not either... or maybe you would. Who knows.
A Christian turned atheist was perhaps never a follow of Christ. For the love he gives me cannot be replaced by anything else, and to leave it behind would mean the end of everything I am.
I would still like to know if you think you have better chance “wishing” rather than praying...
Yours, PRAYING for you.
Love Ami xxx
Ami - are you really trying to tell me i dont know the definition of atheism? atheism is the rejection of theistic claims. therefore rejecting your claims makes me an atheist. as for being open to the possibility that makes me agnostic. i am an agnostic atheist.
if at any point in your life you have been told as a child to believe and god you believed it without question then you have been indoctrinated. you can still be indoctrinated if you later stop believing.
all of a sudden you have gone all fundamentalist. i cant believe this next paragraph. if you say god exists you have to show some evidence that he does. so far you only have an old book from the bronze age written anonymously. this isnt any evidence, scientific or not.
scientists didnt claim the world was flat. that was an assumption based on the fact it looks flat from ground - thats not science. science was getting into space to take pictures that it was a sphere.
so we didnt know anything about electricity until it was discovered, so what? it wasnt mentioned in the bible either. then we discovered it and found out about it.
if science doesnt know something, it freely admits it. it doesnt assert that it does - like religion does. if science gets something then it corrects itself. that is something to praise. religion rarely admits its wrong (muslims still claim fresh and salt water cant mix).
are you telling me you dont believe in evolution? i cant believe that. evolution is a theory, but so is the theory of relatively. you clearly dont know what scientific theory means. evolution has been proved. it is fact. if you are a creationist (which you seem to be) you have to prove this position, which you cant.
we were never monkeys. apes and monkeys are not the same. you are starting to sound very ignorant. no one jumped to the conclusion based on opposable thumbs. the big bang theory has also been proved, its milliseconds just before that they are currently working on. before you make these tired apologetic arguments you should do some actual research.
science doesnt really bother testing religious claims, its a waste of time. there is no difference between the outcome of prayer and the outcome of what will or wont happen anyway.
which part of society says its better to spend money on make up than on charity? its down to individuals. i know plenty of christians who love make up. that has no baring on religion or beliefs.
you cant compare science to the bible. the bible is one book. science is thousands of books, thousands of scientists. your argument would only work if, for example, you only used the bible to prove god and i only used origin of species to prove evolution. luckily we have many other ways to prove evolution, like DNA and archaeology.
atheism is the default position because we are all born without the concept of god. as a child, it is only when someone tells you about god that you know about him. obviously humans have some sort of innate need for worship and religion, and we seek out patterns and answers to life. it doesnt make it true. now we have science, we can answer a lot of those questions without religion. religion was our first attempt at answering difficult questions.
lots of people do look for god, but most are indoctrinated. otherwise more than 1% of the population would go to church regularly.
Ami - i am the very defintion of not being narrow minded. i have admitted i am completely up for changing my position and if anyone shows me evidence i will gladly change. but you only have the bible as evidence. everything else is weird attempts of logic or arguments of morality which is not enough to convince anyone outside of your religion. 5/7ths of the world are yet to be convinced.
im sure jesus could turn up in my room - isnt he meant to be coming back at some point? even then, though, i would still question my own judgement. the mind plays tricks.
extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
no doubt the basic teachings in all religions have some good - after all if they were all bad no one would want to follow them. but it doesnt make them true. they are also all incompatible. only one, at a maximum can be true. what if youve chosen badly? hell for both of us.
of course i want to live in a world where we all get along, and id be happy for 99% of the worlds population to be religious - as long as it didnt affect my life. but that just doesnt happen. when your religion stops affecting my life i will happily leave it alone. you can start by removing the bishops from the house of lords.
survival is not my ultimate goal. humans have gone beyond survival. most animals survive, we live. and that means we should do anything we can to enjoy our time on this earth, within reason.
are you saying there are no atheists whove gone into space? i said in some situations i would die for someone, not easily. i am happy to conceed some luxuries to help others but i like to find the balance. to enjoy my life but try to help others too. many other atheists and christians wouldnt do the same - here is my favorite example: http://tinyurl.com/86lecf8
i know you do lots of great work, and i have always said that is fantastic. i have also said you are not a typical christian or typical person. i give lots of money to charity, i donate lots to charity, i donate free time to good causes. we both do good things. religion, it seems, is not the only cause to do good things.
ah the "no true scotsman" argument (google that to see how wrong you are). of course someone who left religion was never a follower of christ! of course! one of my favorite atheists is an american called matt dillahunty. he was a fundamentalist baptist for 25 years or so and was training to be a baptist minister. then during his study to back up his beliefs (peter 1 3:15) he found there was no basis to believe them. he is now head of the Atheist Community of Austin, texas. was he never a real christian then? he was a christian a lot longer than you.
lets do a wishing vs praying test then. ill wish for something very improbable to happen and something very likely to happen. say winning the lottery and going all this week without injuring myself in any serious way? two reasonable things that i wish for and someone may pray for yea?
you pray for this and ill wish/hope for it. lets see how we do.
oh and ami - i never said i had a better chance with wishing than praying, i said both were just as likely.
have you ever spent a period of time in your life not praying for things that could affect you personally? maybe you should do this for a while and see how little anything changes.
ami - i didnt win the lottery but i am still alive and full of health. so i praise the wishful thinking that kept me from harm.
i hope the reason you havent replied is because you won the lottery.
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